In this episode I’m joined by Elli Runkles, for a conversation that might just shift the way you think about and approach writing sales pages. Elli is a sales copywriter and messaging strategist who works with values-driven entrepreneurs to turn their big ideas into empathy-filled, money-making sales copy. She’s helped hundreds of online business owners, coaches, and creative entrepreneurs dig into their message, deeply understand their ideal clients, and write sales copy that both sells and sounds like them.

Originally from the US, Elli moved to Spain at 21 to avoid going into corporate America, and never looked back. She’s on a mission to help women and others whose voices have traditionally been undervalued to own their message and build successful businesses while boldly challenging the status quo with their big ideas.

In this episode, Elli shares her tips on how to “de-bro” your sales copy, to focus on empathy rather than stabbing at people’s pain points.

TL;DR – here’s how to connect with Elli if you want to learn more from her or grab her course:

Savvy Sales Page Copy ($37 sales page writing mini-course)

Disclaimer: The following transcript has been auto-generated and then edited by me and while the general flow of the conversation is there, it’s most certainly not 100% accurate.

P: I am so excited to welcome you to the show, Elli! In today’s episode, we’re gonna be talking about sales pages. And it’s kind of funny how this episode came about, I think basically it was your ad about writing sales pages without the bro marketing tactics. That popped up in my feed literally just after I’d had a rant about that topic in another episode, about how I don’t want to be one of those pushy people. You know, one of those people using all of the scare tactics, shame tactics, fear of missing out… and I just decided there and then to just reach out straight away and ask you if you’d be interested in doing a guest interview – and you said yes, so here we are.

E: I love how that happens. I’m a little bit like… In some ways I love and in some ways I don’t love how good Facebook is at finding people like that, it’s a little bit creepy. But I love how it connected us in that way. So that’s great, and I’m super excited to dive into this whole topic of bro marketing and sleazy tactics and how we can move away from that in our marketing and sales. 

P: Yeah, I think that you my dear listeners are going to be in for a treat today because I’m going to have a chat with Elli, and I’m going to pick her brains on your behalf (as well as on my own behalf) about how we can start to get away from the bro, and how we can start to write sales pages that are more ethical and more sustainable.

E: Yeah, exactly. 

P: And I have a bee in my bonnet about sales pages. For someone who’s not a copywriter, I have a lot of salty things to say about sales pages. A lot of sales pages really annoy me and irritate me. And I’ve realised after a while that all of the annoying sales pages had a few things in common, shall we say. So it’s really, really nice to be able to bring you onto the show and help to kind of dissect this whole sales page process.

E: And I will say even as a sales page copywriter, I’ve always kind of had a problem with sales pages, like I’ve always kind of had a problem with a lot of the things that happen on sales pages. And so I have, well, you know, in the beginning it would kind of start how we all start out, like just learning what the norms are in the industry. Because I have a writing background, and a marketing background. But combining those into sales page copywriting was definitely a process for me. So when I started offering those services, it was very much learning from what other people are doing, learning from, you know, online copywriting sources and things like that. And just kind of piecing together what worked for me and then turning that into a framework. But so much of what I was saying is… like there’s something off about this, this is not how I want to show up and do things… and so, you know, it’s taken several years but through that process I’ve taken the way I approach sales pages and kind of flipped it on its head – and really the main thing that’s different about the way I approach sales pages is putting people over profits. Which with sales pages, or anything that’s conversion focused, a lot of people you work with, a lot of people you talk to are like… all they care about is the numbers. All they care about is the data. Like did we make the sale? Okay, did this increase conversions? Okay, we’re going to move forward with it. Whereas my approach is all about people over profits because a lot of those profit focused strategies, they might increase the sales. If you A/B test my approach versus someone who is using those tactics. The person using all those like… picking up pain points, sleazy tactics… their sales pitch is probably going to make more initial sales, but the hidden piece that isn’t shown in the data… There are people who are motivated to buy out of avoiding pain, out of feeling pressure to buy… and absolutely it’s human nature to be motivated to avoid pai. And when we feel under pressure, we’re going to make a quick decision – but we also make really, really bad, irrational decisions under that kind of pressure and when our pain is really being agitated to us. And so you might make the initial sales. But then you end up with people who aren’t actually a good fit for your offers. You end up with people who are going to request refunds, they’re not going to tell anybody about your offer.You’re not going to get testimonials or word of mouth referrals. A lot of times, people won’t even do the work right? They would actually go through your course, finish the work because they just thought because they felt like that pain in the moment, but then they’re not actually motivated to move forward and do the work. And so my approach really takes it back to like, who is the person we want to sell to and how can we make sure we’re really speaking to the right person so that we get the people who really want the transformation into the programme? And then from there, it’s really more about empowering them that “yes, you can do this and I can help you get there” rather than “you’d better do this or your life will fall apart.” That’s the main difference there. 

P: I’d say that’s a huge difference. I’d also say, I like that you sort of brought out this whole, “we see other people doing this and so we adopt the same practices” because I think that is a very big part “the problem” here, because you see these big shot entrepreneurs, they’re doing their sales pages in a certain way and they’re making money. Lots and lots of money, or at least they’re telling you that they’re making lots and lots of money, and so you’re thinking, “well, it works for them, and so therefore it has to work for me.” And a lot of people think that that is the only way, because that’s the only thing that’s been preached by the people that have the loudest voices out there. So it’s really, really refreshing to then have your ad pop up in my feed, and for it to resonate with me. And I could then see that “Oh, do you know what? Here is someone who is actually a professional at writing sales pages, but she’s on the same line of thoughts as me. I feel like I could align with this person’s values” – and it is super, super nice when those connections happen, and that is really the biggest reason why I wanted to bring you onto the show as well. It is because I want my listeners to know that there is a different way. 

E: Exactly, and I because I have a sales and marketing background… when I entered the online business space, I was aware that there were other ways of doing it because I had some experience with sales and marketing outside of this industry. But for so many people coming into the online business space, if you don’t have that sales and marketing background. And we all do this, in a lot of areas of my online business where I wasn’t as knowledgeable coming in, I’ve done that, you know, with parts of my branding, with packaging my services… like we all do that, it’s natural, it’s human nature to look to examples of what we see, to kind of learn how to do something that we’re brand new at. And so I’m not at all faulting anyone who has kind of fallen down that trap.

P: Definitely not to shame anyone because like you said, we’ve all been there. I mean, I know a lot of the people that I first looked up to when I entered the online business space are not the same people that I look up to now – but they were the people that were smack bang in the middle of everything, they were the people who were visible, they were the people whose voices were the loudest. And so they were the people I saw. And it wasn’t until at least like a year or two into my own business journey that I started to find the more like minded people and started to dissect these things and question whether these so-called gurus really did have all the right answers. And I realised then that maybe they have some right answers for some people, but they don’t necessarily have the right answers for me and for the brand that I want to build.

E: Exactly! Along those same lines, one thing that I find when it comes to writing sales copy is… because so many of us are looking to those gurus and those big influencers with the big platforms that’s kind of like who we should look up to and who we should be modeling. So much of what they’re promising is way over promising. It’s like if “you follow my five step system or you know, if you buy my course, it’s going to change your life, like your business is going to completely transform” and the reality is that’s a pretty bold promise, like that’s a pretty big thing to try and tell someone you can do. And that’s a whole other conversation we could have about the ethics around those promises that these gurus are making, but when it comes to talking to the listeners about their sales copy, it can be really easy to be influenced. And a lot of this is subconscious, we don’t even realise we’re doing it, but when we see these other people promising a huge life transformation, we feel pressure to do that. And in reality it’s okay to give people micro-transformations. It’s okay to just transform one area of someone’s life, whether that’s… you know, as a copywriter who helps people write sales pages and sales copy, I’m not promising that you’re gonna sell out your course, or have a six figure launch on the very first try. All I’m promising is that sales pages are going to be so much easier for you to write. Like this is going to give you a process, this is going to help you feel more comfortable and clarify your message in a way that of course could have ripple effects in other areas of your business, and help you to reach that six figure launch or whatever your goal is. But I’m never going to promise “if you buy my sales page course, your entire business is going to transform” – and if I wrote my copy in that way, it would just not feel very authentic and you’ll be able to see through it. So that’s one thing I would encourage people to think about: you don’t have to go so big with the promises. It’s okay to just make a small transformation in someone’s life, and that is more believable, and in a lot of ways easier to sell, than saying “your entire life is gonna change if you buy my products.” 

P: And another thing about copying other people: if we all copy these big gurus, we’re all going to end up sounding exactly the same. We’re gonna sound like copies of each other – and when you’re creating a brand, you don’t want to be a copy of someone else because you want to be you and you want to be known for you, so it doesn’t really make sense to copy all of these people that we look up to. It’s much more efficient, I would say, to try and find your own voice in the middle of all of this.

E: I agree completely. And a lot of the way I approach sales pages or sales copy… I keep saying sales pages, but really I always recommend starting with the sales page when you’re building out the messaging for an entire offer, just because that helps you to really clarify the core message. And then you can build out other pieces of your sales copy from there. So I kind of use those terms interchangeably. But when it comes to writing sales copy, it really is almost like a relationship between you and the person you’re speaking to, the ideal clients, you both need to be involved. It’s really not about any other outside factors, it’s about the person who you’re speaking to, your ideal clients, what they need to hear and then how you can give a fresh perspective to that or communicate really what they need to hear. And if you’re taking all your inspiration from outside sources rather than the people who you want to attract to your offers… or listening to your intuition and really trusting yourself to know once you’ve taken the time to get to know your ideal clients, what they need to hear from you, that’s where your best copy is going to come from.

P: I absolutely love everything you just said. That ties in so nicely with everything i try to teach all of my clients – about branding and how they really need to get at their core values, and use those to guide them in pretty much everything they do, whether it’s, you know, their social media presence or when they’re writing a sales page. Because it’s gonna shine through, and if you are pretending to be someone else, someone you’re not, people are going to see through it. And I think with a lot of these sales pages or the sales copy that we see, a lot of the people we’re trying to reach are starting to almost expect something and see through it. And then it’s not efficient anymore. If people automatically scan your sales page and they’re like “hmm, this looks fishy” – that’s not good for sales, is it? I mean, I’m not a sales expert, but… 

E: And a lot of that, going back to that idea of being aligned with your values in everything you do in business, and your branding in your copy and the way you show up every day. And that’s a big reason why those tactics that we see the bro marketers or gurus using don’t work for us. Like if you have tried following those tactics, if you bought programs, which most of us have… like most of us at some point or another. The reason that the guru who is selling it can have a six or seven figure launch with that strategy, and then it doesn’t work for you… One is audience size, like that is absolutely a factor. But another big factor is the values don’t align. So if you’re using a strategy that doesn’t align with your values, you’re just subconsciously not going to implement it in the same way because you’re going to feel weird about implementing it – and so it’s not going to come across. And when you try to do something that doesn’t align it makes you feel bad, it makes the whole process feel really forced. And then in the end you don’t end up with the result you want. So it’s so much better to really take that time in the beginning, really know what your values are, how you want to show up, what you want to communicate… And show up in that way. It’s still going to take time to gain some traction, but you’re going to be doing it in a way that feels aligned and is attracting the right people. 

P: Yeah, what we’re talking about here is really kind of a whole shift in the way we approach writing sales pages. I’m all for the practical tips, because I want people who are listening to be able to take something away from the episode and apply it straight away to help them build their brands and their businesses. So do you have any tips for anyone who wants to write their own sales copy? How do you get started and how do you untie yourself from the bro? 

E: So the main, like the biggest tip I can give is to involve your audience in the process, specifically the ideal clients. And a lot of you’ve probably heard of the process of creating an ideal client avatar for your business. That can be useful, but I like to take that a step further and rather than just having an avatar of this made up person that you think would be a good fit for your products and your services… actually have conversations with real people. That is the best way to figure out the copy you want to use, the message you want to use, what words you’re using to sell your products… is talking to the people who they’re made for. And so that’s the very first thing I would recommend people do: get on calls with people who are in your audience. Well I guess that’s the second thing. The first thing would be just kind of sit down and brainstorm who is an ideal client if you haven’t gone through this process already. If you have some criteria “for someone to be a good fit for my offer, they need to fit these, you know, five criteria” – you can be selective in that way. But then once you’ve narrowed it down from there, go find five people who fit that criteria and talk to them. This isn’t just an exercise for you to do on your own. It’s about a back and forth, because at the end of the day, the sales process is a two way street. All you can do is your part. At the end of the day, your customers, your audience, have to meet you halfway to be the one to actually, you know, make the decision to pull out their wallet and buy from you. And so they have to be involved in the process. I would say figure out what your criteria is for who your products are going to be a good fit for, and then get on calls and have conversations. And you can ask questions just like “Tell me about your experience with [whatever it is that you help people with]” and then we’ll have a conversation and I’ll ask them things like “What have you tried in the past? What’s worked? What hasn’t worked? How often do you do this? How often is it showing up for you? What kind of thoughts go through your head? What kind of results have you gotten?” Things like that. And just have a conversation. I also like to ask things like “What would a solution look like for you? What would need to be involved that you think would help you to to solve this problem?” And that can kind of lead to some of those what they want versus what they need questions, because sometimes that’s not always the same. So this process will really help you to get into the mind of your ideal client, because you’re talking to them, they’re telling you what they want, what they need, in the area that you can help them. And then that is a really good place to start for understanding where your people are at, because a lot of times if we’re just making assumptions, we get it wrong. Because you’re the expert in what you do, it’s really easy to assume. Like if you’re at level 10 in terms of your knowledge about the topic that you’re teaching on or selling products on, we assume that our people are a 6 or 7. And we all do this, because we have that foundational knowledge about the area of our expertise, and we forget about all the things we did to learn it. We forget about how much work we actually put in to become an expert, and we just assume it’s something everybody knows, but it’s not. And so having these conversations will really help you get down to a level 1 or 2, which is where your people really are in terms of the way we talk about your offers, which helps you just really meet people where they are. So talk to your people and involve them in the process.

P: Yeah, and I guess when you talk to real people, that makes it easier and less scary? You can almost picture them in your head as you’re writing and pretend like you’re writing to that person rather than just staring at your blank page with the cursor, thinking “What do I write here?”

E: Exactly. And a lot of ideal client exercises… I have seen people create like a persona and give her a name for who their ideal client is, and that’s great. That can really help. But when that persona is an actual person or a group of people that you’re going back to (and I like to talk to a few people because if you just talk to one, you don’t really know if it’s just this one person’s opinion)… But when you can go back to “what would Carrie need to hear or what would Sarah need to hear?” Ask yourself these questions as you’re writing your sales page, and you’re thinking about real people that you had a conversation with. It makes it so much easier. 

P: This is what I’m all about. Connections, real connections. So that you can create a brand that’s centered around those people rather than some kind of fantasy figure or whatever. 

E: Connection and empathy. Like those are the two big things, and what’s interesting… you know one thing that’s interesting with this… is that at the end of the day, once you’ve gone through this entire process, the actual structure of your final sales page won’t be wildly different from a lot of the examples that you’ve seen. You know, the general structure of how you structure a sales page, it’s kind of universal. There are changes you can make, but it’s kind of universal. And so the structure is not going to be wildly different from a lot of the examples that you’ve seen, it’s really more about the content and the substance within that structure. So you know you mentioned at the beginning of the episode that Facebook was where we found each other, the ad where I kind of compare the old way of writing sales pages which is the P.A.S. formula (problem, agitate, solution) that’s like the classic, you know pick up pain points, agitate pain points to make sales example. Where mine is E.P.O. (empathy, possibility opportunity). So start with empathy, and you can talk about problems when addressing empathy, possibility is like what’s going to be possible for your clients after they work with you, and then the opportunity is presenting your offer as an opportunity rather than like a “this is something you have to do, or you’re going to have all these horrible things happen to you.” And at the end of the day, if you’re just kind of skimming there’s not a huge difference in terms of what these two things look like when you get to the end result. But really what makes it different is the process of intention throughout the process of creating it. And that connection and empathy piece is going to be kind of built into the words within the formula or the structure rather than making your sales page totally unrecognisable from what other people are doing. Because that’s not really the case. And some of that familiarity is a good thing, because people don’t have to learn where to look. Like, we all know when Facebook makes updates and they move everything around and it’s like, “I can’t find what I’m looking for!” right? So like using some of that structure of what people are kind of used to and what people expect. That doesn’t mean you’re being a bro marketer, or that you’re using sleazy tactics, that is totally fine. It’s really more about the attention in the words that you’re using and the way you’re communicating within that structure. 

P: So rather than just like stabbing away at people’s pain points and making them feel icky about themselves in the situation, it’s more the way I’ve interpreted you, it’s more about showing them that you understand the situation that they are in and “here is a solution that could help you.”

E: Exactly. And within that empathy piece and then talking about “here’s where you are now” – sometimes problems come up. You know, like that’s part of life. We have problems, we have negative experiences, we have things that we would like to change. And so by saying we’re approaching a sales page with empathy and values, that doesn’t mean we have to be all toxic positivity, like everything’s great all the time. 

P: That’s another that’s another one of my pet peeves actually, that toxic positivity. I think it’s right up there with the bro language for me. 

E: So I want to make it clear that I am not advocating for toxic positivity by saying things like “oh, everything’s great, and this is just going to make everything even better.” That’s not what I’m suggesting at all. Because people have problems, people have struggles, and we can absolutely talk about that in our copy. And it really just comes down to… one thing you can think about as you’re writing your copy is coming back to the question “am I saying this because I want to help, or am I saying this because I want to make the sale?” And if you’re pointing at problems because it’s just like “I’ll say whatever I have to say to make the sale” – which I don’t think the people listening to this are going to want to do, but we can all get there. You know, if you’re in a situation where money is tight and you’re in a situation where you’re launching a new product and you have to recoup some money… or whatever the case, maybe it doesn’t matter how big your intentions are, we can all get there, we can all get into a mindset where it’s like”I have to get a new client this month or I’ll not be able to pay the bills” and we can inadvertently get into the mindset of like “I’ll say whatever I have to say to make the sale”, but people can see through that. And so again, from a business perspective and just like what’s gonna feel good and what’s going to align, returning to that question of like, “what’s my intention here” is going to help a lot too. 

P: Yeah. Whenever I write a sales page for one of my products, I just… I don’t want to write something that makes me not able to sleep at night, because I want to feel as if I’ve stayed true to my own values, and I’ve respected the people that took the time to come and actually read my sales page in the first place. Because they could have gone to someone else. But they are on my page, reading my sales page and so I want to, you know… I want to treat them with respect, as adults. And not, you know, just assume that they need teaching or that they don’t know what they’re talking about. Or that they’re not capable of making decisions for themselves when it comes to what they can and can’t afford to invest in their business. And that’s another thing with a lot of the sales pages that really triggered me; when they’re like “You have to invest in your business, you deserve to invest in your business. If you don’t do that, then you’re not being serious about your business.” And I’m like, but these people writing these pages have no idea what that other person’s life is like right now. Maybe they’ve got 30 euros left in their bank account and they have to choose between putting food on the table for their kids that week or buying what you see as a really reasonably priced mini course or something. It doesn’t even have to be about the big, huge thousands of dollars investments. It’s just about respecting that other person and their ability to make good choices for themselves.

E: It’s really patronising. A lot of the tactics that are used are coming from that assumption that like I know better than you about what’s best for your life. And again, that is something that we’ve seen modeled so many times in the online business industry, that it can be really easy to fall into those traps of using that same kind of language because you just don’t know right? You’re being told this is how you’re supposed to sell and so you do it without even realising that you’re falling into that patronising language that’s assuming that you know best. How much ego does that take?! For the people who know what they’re doing and are fully on board with using those strategies to make sales like that. It’s just there’s so much ego involved and that assumption that “I know what’s best for you when I have no idea about anything about your life” and like pushing people to make that decision to make that sale. It’s just so ugly. I’m not here for it, let’s do this differently.

P: Do I sense a quiet revolution coming up in sales page land?

E: I’ve been really encouraged over the last year or so, by the way that things are shifting. In some ways it does feel like a little bit of a quiet revolution, not just with sales pages, but just with how this industry is run, how we communicate, how we approach business. There have been problems for a long time in this industry, and you know, the last year has just… in every area of life, it has revealed broken systems. It’s revealed problems that, you know, were kind of floating by underneath the surface. And in this industry as well, the last year has really revealed broken systems. It’s revealed where things aren’t working and where people are creating a change and so, you know, I’m so glad that we’re having this conversation. I know that we’re not the only ones that are having this conversation, that this is definitely something that more people are starting to talk about. And I hope so, I hope this is a quiet revolution that’s starting to kind of bubble up and we’re going to see real change in the way that people approach selling in this industry because it needs to happen.

P: Do you think that there’s going to be a transitional period where the gentler approach to sales pages still isn’t going to be as effective (if money is the only thing that you’re looking at) as the traditional sales pages? Or do you reckon the switch will happen quicker than we think? 

E: You know, I think we’re in that transition now. 2020 was such a hard year in every sense of the word. And you know, I’m from the US, so I’m not going to get political, but just using what happened in 2020 in the US… and now that we’re kind of coming out of that, we can see, you know, those big big problems that were very, very top of mind… Like so much was just “Okay, How can we get back to a baseline of normal so that we can even think about what we want to do differently?” At that point it was just “Can we please stop causing harm?!” and now that we have a new administration and things are… There are so many problems still going on, but it’s kind of to a point where it’s like, “Okay, now we can talk about what we want change to look like, now that the harm has been removed, what do we want real change to look like?” And so I think that, you know, we may be in a similar place in online business. 2020 revealed a lot of problems and now I feel like the dust is starting to settle a little bit more. We’re definitely in this inbetween stage where it’s like, we know we want to do things differently. A lot of us are experimenting. A lot of us are trying new things, and I do think a new norm is gonna emerge from that, but we’re kind of in the messy middle I think.

P: Yeah… I definitely feel the messy middle. It’s trying and it’s failing and then it’s figuring out what worked and what didn’t work and why didn’t it work? And I I totally get that, you know yeah, sales copy is there to help you make sales otherwise, you know, it wouldn’t be called sales copy. And we are in business because we need to make money because if we’re not making money in our business, then it’s kind of just like a glorified hobby. So how can we balance that need, do you think, to make the money that we need to keep our businesses going, but also honouring other people’s needs and wants, respecting people… is there a balance there? How do we achieve it? 

E: So the way I think about this is: the root of everything is values. Knowing what your values are and making a heartfelt attempt, none of us are going to get it perfect, but making a heartfelt attempt to stay in line with your values in everything you do in your business, not just the way you’re doing sales, but in everything. And then when it comes to selling, I like to think of it as “this is what I have to offer and I deserve to be paid for it” right? I’m not running a charity, I’m not just putting myself out there to help whoever wants it. Like… I need to make money, I’m not running a charity, but I am going to sell in a way that gives a heartfelt message and a clear and honest reflection of “this is what I have to offer you, this is what it’s gonna cost.” And then you can kind of take it or leave it if you’re interested in that. And that’s where empathy comes in. It’s to really understand your people and really know them and speak to what they are looking for, and they can take it or leave it, and sometimes they leave it because they genuinely can’t afford it at that time. And you know, that that’s kind of a tricky area. Like if you feel called to… if it feels like the right thing to you, you can absolutely have scholarship programs or discounts, or structure your payment plans in a way that makes it easier for those people who are saying no because it’s strictly a financial reason. They’re absolutely things you can do to kind of combat that. But at the end of the day, if it’s just because they decide it’s not a good fit, you can respect that as a business owner and say “OK, this isn’t for them and that’s okay.” You know, my approach is not for everybody. I get a lot of pushback from people who are totally happy with the status quo of how things are going, saying that my approach is not going to work, or that I’m crazy for trying to use this approach or whatever. And my stuff is not for them. So I just move on. You know, I just say this is what I have to offer. You can take it, or leave it and let other people take it. Another thing that I like to think about… and again, this is getting a little more like philosophical or political… but the way that we talk about running a business based on your values. Because the way we run our business reflects in the way we live our lives and the things we do outside of our business. And so if you’re the type of person who is really thinking about your values, and the way you want to show up, and the impact that you want to have through your business, you’re the type of person I want to have a lot of money. Like you’re the type of person who I want to be rich and powerful. I totally understand that kind of fear, and that feeling weird about taking money from people to run your business – but that’s why we need more people who care about their values, and who care about living a life that they’re proud of and that aligns with how they want to show up in the world. We need those people to make money. And so if you’re listening to this and you feel a little weird about selling, I would say if you’ve made it to this point in the podcast, your heart is in the right place. So do it in a way that aligns with your values, but go out there and make money so that you can have the influence and the impact that we need more people like you to have. I kind of went on a soapbox there, I got a lot to say on this topic. 

P: Yes!! I like your soapbox, I am on that soapbox with you. Actually, I have a lot of those soapboxes and I’m not afraid to share them either. So when you say “Oh I’m sorry, I don’t want to get political” – I really don’t mind people getting political. It all ties in with values. I don’t think you can get into brand values and talk about brand values without bringing politics into it, because politics and life and values in general are just so closely interlinked. So to make this super actionable for people who are listening today… If you could give our listeners just like one simple tip, something that they could take away today and implement straight away, what would that be? 

E: I would say when it comes to sales page copy specifically, I’ve mentioned that get on calls with ideal clients, speak to people who fit your ideal client profile… the next step from there that I think a lot of people skip, a lot of people will go straight from having these conversations into “Okay, now I have to write my sales page!” There’s really a middle step that needs to happen there, which in my framework, I call it releasing your genius. And this is when you kind of just go through a brain dump exercise and just let your ideas flow. Once you have these conversations with your ideal clients… I always recommend transcribing them so you can almost kind of study your conversation with your ideal client. Once you’ve gone through that process, sit down and just write out whatever comes to mind. I always like to structure it like thinking about that E.P.O. model for structuring the sales case. There’s a lot more that you can do but those three are a good place to start. So for empathy, you can think like where are they now? What are they experiencing? What thoughts are going through your head and just write out anything that comes to mind. How do I want to respond to how they’re feeling and what they’re they’re experiencing? Bring out the same things with the possibility like what’s going to be possible on the other side? What transformation do they want to experience? Bring about all of that. Go through that process and just let it flow, don’t filter yourself, don’t worry about how to translate this onto the sales page, or worry about grammar or if it makes sense. Don’t worry about any of those things, just get the ideas out there. And what happens then, is that it gives you a huge bank of resources to come back to as we’re writing your sales page. The main points you want to make on your sales page are going to be there when you finish going through that process. And then it’s just a matter of reading through your notes, pulling out the best pieces and then translating that into your sales page. And so if you’re starting from scratch, I would recommend starting to do the client interviews and then go through that process before starting about your sales page. If you have a sales page that you want to improve on, that I would say is a separate exercise. Don’t even go and read through your sales page again, don’t even look at what’s on there now. As a separate exercise, do those ideal client calls if you haven’t done that already, and then go through that brain dump process. But instead of using that to then write a sales page from scratch, what you can do is compare, go and look at your sales page and ask “Okay, the stuff that I wrote down in my brain dump… Am I communicating that on my sales page?” And if not, that will reveal a lot of ways that you can make improvements and start incorporating that into the copy you already have. 

P: I guess as an added bonus to doing that brain dump is that you’ll then have a bank of smaller segments of text or copy that you could reuse for social media posts or other content that’s not as comprehensive. So if people are like “I don’t want to spend time doing that brain dump thing” … well you can probably repurpose a lot of it and repurpose snippets of it. I think I’m actually gonna do that exercise myself. 

E: Awesome! You’ll have to let me know how it goes and what comes up. 

P: Yeah, I will. It’ll be messy! 

E: And that’s something I want to highlight too. Embrace the messy. Even for me you know, I’ve built out this process. But even for me who has tons of experience writing sales pages, every single page, even if I follow the steps to a tee… It’s messy. The steps are streamlined, but what happens in each step is messy, and that’s just part of the process, so don’t worry about it. If it’s messy, it will get refined as you go.

P: Embrace the mess! 

E: Exactly!

P: We’re going to round off, but before you go I just want to ask: if my listeners want to learn more from you, where is the best place to go and find you and connect with you?

E: You can find me on and @ellirunkles on Instagram, which is where I’m the most active on social media.

P: And I happen to know that you’ve got a sales page mini course. Tell us about that before you go. 

E: Yeah. So if you’re interested in the kind of process that we’ve talked about today, I walk you through the steps for all of that. I do the breakdown of the client interviews and then writing the sales page itself, all of that in my course. It’s called Savvy sales page copy and it’s a mini course. It’s only $37. So you know, if that works for you and you’re interested in learning more about writing sales pages, that’s a really great place to get started. 

P: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on sales pages and how we can make them more ethical and less bro. It’s been an absolute pleasure. 

E: Thank you so much, I really enjoyed it. Thanks for having me.

Until next time,

Petchy xx

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